Generator Ep. 018 – Emily London: On Becoming a Dom Photographer

Emily London 0:00
I love that we get to have a conversation that’s recorded. This is a fun. This is like, such a culmination of so many conversations you and I have had where I’ve been like, I want you to record our conversations.

Matt Stagliano 3:17
How many times have we said that over the past year anyway? Right.

Emily London 3:22
Yeah. Yeah. And it really strikes me that when we were having our conversations the most, I was also in a lot of fear storms in that season. And it’s been some months where I’ve actually been in a really solid space, it’s I’ve been in a really supportive relationship container. And it’s been bringing me through this like fortification process, my stress levels are decreasing and stabilizing my, my relationships with my teenagers are calming down and getting my son is coming out of his teen rebellion stage, my daughter’s just arriving into it. So we’ll see how I’m trying to be strong, be prepared, because I love her. And I know that that’s part of the process of going through, like the whole shift of emotionality of this body. And so I feel very much more equipped to help her now that I’ve gone through all of the last four years of self discovery and travel and individuation that I’ve gone through. And I’m also like, a little terrified and myself, like for war. So both ends.

Matt Stagliano 4:37
Okay, so we’ve we’ve set the stage that that there is a course coming that you’re very afraid of recording that you’ve got some fear wrapped up in. Hi, Emily. It’s nice to see you. I love you, Matt. How are you? Doing great. I like it. Like Like we said a second ago. I’m really happy. We’re getting a chance to do this. I want to talk all about the DOM I’m photographer as much as you want to. But, you know, our conversations are so wide ranging, and it’s gonna be easy anyway. But I thought, you know, the DOM photo I’ve been watching you build this over, probably the better part of a year, right of, of conceptualizing kind of where you wanted to go with education, how you wanted to teach your own thing, and envelop all of the pieces of your personality, and integrate those parts of you that are super important into your teaching. And so I’ve watched this build over the past year, and it’s been really, really cool, now that you’ve been able to launch it, to the degree of, you know, I was able to watch a video anyway. And I know that it’s out there. So how does how does it feel to finally have this out in the wild after, you know, months and months and months and months of, of kind of incrementally building it?

Emily London 6:09
Well, it’s, that’s an interesting question, it feels like I’ve just starting and frankly, like, even this course, never felt like a pinnacle course or anything. For me, I’m very clear, my vision is aiming towards this masculine or feminine, inner masculine and feminine, harmonizing. And, and, and teaching people how to have that ability to bring their inner harmony into their outer experiences is more what’s calling to me. And it’s been really cool in the last four years of, like, deep devotion to this work, to reflect in hindsight on my work in photography, and the nature of holding space. And bringing somebody into themself into places of yourself that you’ve discovered, and made peace with, and learn to activate and magnify. And this person sees this in you and your work. That’s why they want to be photographed by you, they want that energetic. imprint. Right. And, and also, they want that permission, that safety that they’re allowed to go there. So I had a lot in my backstory, my youth, about being a show off. Like, I was definitely that kid, I was like, always, of course, you know, trying to be trying to be in front of the room. And, you know, like, and I personally went through challenges with people who were really repelled by that, and really, like, offended that I existed that way, and made sure you know, like, ah, and it’s like, amazing, I see this, I feel this a movement of this little child. It’s like a second grader who had this experience, but that second grader, so wanted to be safe, right from the judgments of others. And so then the third grader or fourth grader, that’s tougher now protects and builds this wall. And, you know, I learned over time that I got, I got very fortified and capable of presenting. Like, a mask. Yeah. And I learned in my studies that they call this posturing and it’s a form of protection. When somebody doesn’t feel safe, when the system goes into fight or flight cueing danger. We can have multiple characters show up in different ways in those moments, that kind of like, take over our body. And like you can see in the moment for me crying the character that shows up as the second grader and in the you know, in subsequent moments when I’ve been you know, given some online trolling or whatever, I had more fortitude and more capacity to take it and more ability to, like not take it on as part of myself. Like I’m not that second grader and I’m tougher and I can guard her and she’s safe I’m holding her sacred from that shit because I’m not I’m holding the boundaries internally in my mind that I’m no longer making somebody else’s parameters for my behavior necessary for me to hold myself sacred. I’m not meant to cage myself in order to keep myself safe. Right.

Matt Stagliano 9:55
Yeah, I mean, I in the way that you explain this in In the DOM photographer, you’ve got this gorgeous graphic of dignity versus humility, right. And on one side, you’ve got the posturing. On the other side, you’ve got overwhelm. And it’s this beautiful rainbow spectrum, right? And, and I will never put words in your mouth, but the way that I understand it is you can swing from far extreme from one end to the other. And you can either be in, you know, perfect humility, perfect dignity, right. Or you can be somewhere in the middle and have this balance, which is where you kind of strive to be, but that pendulum is always in motion, where you’re always going to be moving back and forth between this, this posturing and defensiveness and then, you know, being much more positive and available, am I getting? Am I getting this? Right? So explain that to me? Sure.

Emily London 10:55
So when we’re talking about the extreme edges of this spectrum, we’re talking about nervous system dysregulation. So we’re talking about fight or flight. So the feeling of unsafety. So whenever the feeling of unsafety arises for somebody, that’s when they’re likely to tip out of this middle range of the spectrum, you just describe the healthy middle range where we’re available for connection, where we have a beautiful balance in our dignity, and in our humility, and our curiosity and openness to other people, as well as in our ability to hold our own frame to have ourselves to have our back to like to know I’m a cool person, even if you think I’m a show off. And that’s your story. What a story for you to carry. I have compassion for that story, your whole thing. Right, because I wore that story for a little minute, after I was told to wear it. And I would have my own quality, despising other people who were taking up too much space and perceiving them as hogging the airtime of the room or something, right, especially like in group settings, I remember actually having Costa Rica arriving and seeing this one woman dynamically telling a story at dinner, filling the space, and being highly triggered in the corner, even though everybody else seemed quite entertained, but feeling like Who does she think she is taking up all this space in this group conversation. And what I realized when I observed myself later was I deeply wanted to be able to have permission to tell my own stories in the space. But I was holding myself back to not be a show off, or to not be dominating the space. And so my anger was something I was also directing inwardly. And using as a cage, right? That’s the jailer, the the warrior archetype within our self, can be imbalanced as a guardian and protector, an advocate. And when we get triggered in fight or flight, it can get inflamed. And the challenge is certain personalities, that inflammation causes anger and aggression. And that’s where we see dignity posturing, and that that side of the spectrum, I’m there, that tends to be me. I grew up in a really ferocious household. And so I had the ability to hold my ground, you know, developed that way, but the other side of the spectrum is collapse. And that’s when our inner warrior is turning the blame inward. And that’s when it becomes the cage. And shame is blame cast inward. And when we take that other direction, we collapse.

Matt Stagliano 13:57
Right? I, I’m, I’m all on that side, I live in that cage, the collapse page, right? Like, that’s so comfy for me to stay in this place of hiding and overwhelm and depression and, and just basically shutting down, you know, and when I was when I was doing a lot of therapy. I just started learning about the polyvagal theory, which you referenced in this as well. And for those that don’t know, polyvagal theory is basically centered around the vagus nerve, which is kind of like this longest nerve that you have in your body and it runs between the brain and the gut in the heart. And it’s kind of like this ancient nerve that you have, but it contributes to why people say, you know, the gut has its own brain like this, this pays this, this plays into that. But essentially polyvagal theory is you’ve got your three states, you’ve got your safe and secure state. You’ve got your fight state fight or flight state and then You’ve got the freeze state, right and freeze dorsal vagal complex Lex, and the safety is ventral vagal complex. So you’ve got ventral vagal, dorsal vagal. And then you’ve kind of got the middle which is the your sympathetic nervous system and everything in there. So when I first started hearing about the polyvagal theory and understanding where I was spending most of my time, understanding fight or flight or freeze or safety, I realized that I had been living in this, this dorsal vagal State, I was really in this sense of collapse of shutting down of shutting out of basically full on self protection, it’s safer to be wrapped up in a cage, and shut down than it is to deal with all of the other things that are happening in my life. And this is like, you know, the childhood stuff, the trauma, the, you know, all of the the pressures and not knowing how to deal which is manifested in a billion different ways, perfectionism and ADHD, and, you know, the inability to love and like all these things, right? So it really struck me that you were taking, I’ll make a long story a little longer, really struck me that you, you took this approach to photography, right in not so much an approach to photography, but bringing this type of conversation into education, in photography, about the complex nature of the relationship between the subject, and the photographer, and how you basically have to have your house in order to project the energy that these folks are coming to you for? Because that’s what they see anyway. Is that is that generally it right? I’m attracted to your work, therefore, I think you are this thing. So I’m going to come to you. And your goal is to stay in that energy that they see that they think,

Emily London 17:06
well, let’s

Matt Stagliano 17:08
say that energy, but like,

Emily London 17:10
let’s clarify, because I Yes, I do. Especially when it comes to me, as my nature. Not every photographer is attractive, because they have their house in

order. Oh, totally. I think that there are people who are attractive

because of their chaos, and because of their wildness. 100%. Right. So attractiveness is obviously it’s a familial thing that’s like, you know, everybody’s going to be attracted to different people in different moments in their life and their their some, like cosmic My belief is that there’s some, there’s something organizing this universe that causes all of these collisions of people. And every time I collide with a new person, I really perceive it as like, some divine like gift for myself for this person to extract something from and to nourish each other with and to that, for me, I have such a belief in the connectivity of us, right, as a human so. So I, as I’ve been studying in photography, or in after photography, post photography, tantra study, I really started getting to learn about the quality of CO regulation. And I’ve also been very interested in studying a lot power dynamics. I got married when I was 18 years old, to a 25 year old man. And he turned out to be a very decent and loving being and I was very well cared for and loved in my marriage. It wasn’t like some horrible abuse situation. But at the same time, there’s an aspect of me that had a bit of almost like Stockholm Syndrome experience, because of the power dynamic difference of seven years, a span from 18 to 25. Is is quite a difference in power. But not only the age, it was more actually. I wanted the relationship more.

I wanted him so bad, like

for anything. And, and I knew I wanted it more. So he had more power just because of that. It’s not necessarily like a an overpowering person taking advantage of their power. It was more of a I will do anything to keep this contained. And so for that the nature of the fact that I carried myself in that role for a about seven years of that marriage. And then I really became resistant and wanted to divorce. And we didn’t get to worse until eight years later. And the journey of those eight years was actually more or less my photography journey. It was right at that moment I discovered Sue Brice because I told my husband for the first time like, I want to discover my self, what interests me, you went to college, I stayed home with our kids and started a business. Business is doing well, you’re graduated, I want to go educate myself. And I went online and found Sue Brice and I was a high school dropout, who had not left the house for like seven years because I was raising kids and having an online business selling stickers on the internet. So I was very disempowered. And I was given this new vocabulary, and new permissions for guarding and holding my energy sacred. And, you know, I was six, I was 26, when I started my photography career, I would not have called myself a DOM. Or, of course I wasn’t, I was a kid, I was always I still see myself as a kid, I’m not necessarily trying to say like, I’m the DOM photographer, and all moments, I don’t, I don’t want to worry about mental all the time. Thank you. I can hold it, it’s a frame I can step into, because I know how to access my dignity. And Sue Bryson, the the opportunity to grow into the photography, it was the it was the language that gave me access to my dignity. And it came in stages.

Matt Stagliano 21:46
And I grew into conversations that you’ve had with a lot of people about this stuff. Do you find that it’s a having never been a woman? Myself? Do you find that this is a common story? With some of the photographers that you meet that are coming to you for mentoring is there this, you know, late in life rebirth, and I’d say late in life, meaning like you’re an adult, you’re over 21, right? This this point in life, where you just suddenly recognize that you have this power, and want to tap into that, is that something you hear a lot, I know that that I’ve noticed it a few times that in this photography community, some folks start later, I was one of them, I didn’t start till I was basically 40. And it was at that point that my life started to change, right, where I felt more powerful and more dignified, and I had a little bit more of that self confidence. When you start talking to some of your students or mentees or people at a conference, or wherever you might be, do you find that there are similar threads and a lot of people stories of disempowerment, or our folks just looking for something new? Like what’s your what’s your take, when people come to you that what are they searching for?

Emily London 23:14
With a question, I feel like I meet so many people that the variety of where people are at in their journeys. So across the board. People come to me for mentoring really, when they’re like, I haven’t been making money, I raised my prices, I believe in my prices, but like nobody else does. So is is it my area, I have just have everything set up. And I’m now at that point where I have to make this work or I have to stop. So I have I’ve hired you know, that’s what they come to me for to tell me am I good enough? Right. So they’re coming for validation in that moment, if that’s fair and go into professional for validation is wise. And then to they’re also wanting to learn the next skill set that brings them into the enticement, right? Of like, nobody owes you $3,000 For your images, you’re not entitled to their $3,000 Right. It’s up to you to make them so desirous. That they’re like, Okay, that felt like $3,000 worthy of desire to to have this right, that’s so so attractiveness. Right is a quality that generates desire. As much as my work as much as my professionalism, my ability to be, like, interested in other people made me really attractive. My ability to be safe for people made me really attractive. My warm And, and capacity to actually, like feel comfortable at networking events. So I wasn’t so tense that I couldn’t like be aware of the fact that everyone else around me is also so tense, that they just want somebody else to come say hi to them first. Because I’m in so much my own story that I’m just shut down and can’t. So after you go to a few networking events, I pushed myself through that, then I was the person who was like, comfortable enough to be here coming to the room, let me introduce you to your first person. And just growing into that ease, fullness was attractive. And I didn’t start there. I earned it over time, my enthusiasm was the best thing in the beginning, that brought people in that was attractive.

Matt Stagliano 25:52
You know, I think one of the things that that I heard you messaging, as I was watching the video, that kept getting repeated over and over, or at least some of the subtext that kept getting repeated over and over, was about setting this very safe environment for people. And part of what we do as photographers in such intimate settings, is we, we flirt with that line between safety and danger for someone, right, and for everybody that’s a that’s a different line of things, you can say things you can’t say, how open or closed off you are, right. And your job, as a professional is to understand your subject is to connect with them, and to be able to meet them where they’re at, and be able to create this safe space to be this trusted person that they can put their faith in. To deliver what it is they’re coming to you for. I love the fact that there was always this emphasis on on safety and honor and respect. Because I think a lot of times, artists of any discipline, we make it about us, it’s about me, I want to get the picture, I want to have the nice portfolio, I want to be admired by other photographers, I want to do this I want to do it’s comparison, comparison comparison. And we sometimes forget, I’ve been guilty of it, that the person in front of the camera is a natural person as a human. And they have desires and wants and needs. And I have to stay in tune to that all the time to make sure that I’m delivering the best product possible, the best experience possible, the most safe environment possible. I love the fact that you talk about that safety and creating a space that is perfect for the person in front of you. But knowing that that space that you create, will probably be different for each person. But it’s the intention with which you create that space that’s common throughout.

Emily London 28:06
I mean, yes, and it’s your it’s your own energy that’s going to always be common throughout, right. Like I’m, I’m not distorting myself to accommodate the other No, I get this is what I’m saying. Yeah, right. So my, my part of it is, I have the intentionality that I’m holding whatever is real, in the space, for her and for me. And so, in order for me as an artist to create my most real from the gut stuff, I have to have done a few things in the background first. You know, it’s like first I have to master the actual technique of the craft. Sure, my brain is still in the fear and the frazzle of the camera gear and stuff. That’s, that’s challenging to navigate holding all of my energy and being in this vibe being the hostess too. So there’s there’s some pre work, of course, and then there’s also the pre work of the if I want my truth, to be safe in the space, but let’s say for example I don’t create safety for my truth in my in other arenas of my life. So here’s Let’s go, let me go into my story. Sure. For me, it’s my it’s my, probably everything. Honestly, I was very used to muting my personality and being very in the awareness of other and always like being whatever I was needed from the other, for the other to be loved. This was my adaptation strategy. And I was very gifted at it and so it made me actually Really very strong as a kind of a relational leader, in that, I almost like disappeared and became only this awareness that was magnifying this other person’s presence. Right? And like, and permissioning it from this space of just openness and appreciation. Like, wow, you’re doing so good. This is exactly right. And so of course, some of the pre work is also, I had to get to the stage where I had the practice of doing that for myself, in front of the mirror, when I’m working through my all all these, like awkward poses that I’m trying to teach myself or photography, and I’m making it a safe space. And even if there’s like a weird one, like, oh, wow, that looks so weird. Instead of being like, Oh, I’m terrible at this. You know, it’s like, what would make that look good. And so cultivating the ability to not turn my irritation, or my judges ability to perceive that something is not what I want, not make it become a story that then becomes all of the things that make me get fear, that make me unable to create because I know that fear is the antithesis of creation. And so I had to have made that like my habit state, for me, because now I’m in the studio, I’m feeling tension in my body. But I’ve actually, since this time has been, you know, evolved. Now, I actually have a lot of techniques that I know how to ground myself how to, like, get comfortable and learn in my body. I just actually breathe a few deep breaths, the stage fright will chill, I know it, it’s part of every photo shoot, I’m gonna have a few crazy intense like heart racing, fast breathing moments, when the shoot first begins. And my client is there too. And I’m watching her there, she’s in it, she’s never been in it before. But I’ve been in it 50 times, 100 times 200 times, right. So it makes sense that I’m the leader who’s going to tell her this is actually how it’s gonna go. Like, I got you, we’re safe, deep breaths, slow down my breathing. Notice how even my voice now just shifted, I had like a pinch in my range, which is tension and being in the head, right. And when you go into your breath, it’s a moment to bring you into your body into your truth, your actual emotions, not your analysis, and all of the very distracting thoughts that you might have about that, or about anything else. And being able to bring that into the space. My truth as a as an artist and creator is where my timing is, is where my instincts are is where like the most effortless, most interesting images come as when I’m like, so safe to just try anything. And even if she thinks it’s weird, we’re going to like, not make it weird.

Because I’m, I’m in play mode. And I’m setting the tone of play mode. And you’ve

Matt Stagliano 33:26
also built this this modicum of trust with them, right? So they’re coming along for the ride because they trust the energy that you have and that they’re safe. And that you know, play time is playtime, and it’s going to be fine no matter what they may be fighting internally, there’s this external connection to you, which can help them get past whatever their fears or inhibitions or blocks might be. And you know, you you said a few minutes ago about the breath work. Breathing in breathing out. Letting that out right. And just exactly. All the listeners are loving that in the car right now just ah but you do

Emily London 34:15
we can do better for them. We can we can make it work for them. We can we can. Oh we have different recording ladies. Yeah, totally different recording. So make it happen.

Matt Stagliano 34:27
You write it I’ll record it. How’s that sound?

Emily London 34:30
Okay,

Matt Stagliano 34:30
so you talked about, like breathwork and as as a photographer as learning this, I don’t want to call it a method because I I’m so I’m so in tune with everything that you’re teaching. Meaning I’ve been down this road that’s it comes from a place that I basically come from because I’m so centered on connection and holding safety for people. I’m all in on this on this methodology. So when I when I talk about it, it’s sounds like I’m saying it’s a method, but it’s not. It’s just a, a, an approach to photography, right? You have breathwork in there about doing breathing exercises, 20 minutes, right, the the 666 method, breathe in for six seconds, hold for six seconds out for six seconds, right? You’ve got all of these meditative practices and self awareness practices, and becoming aware of thoughts and feelings and letting them pass through you. And just observing them, I mean, really core meditation techniques that, again, lead back to that balance between dignity and humility, right, it’s always coming back to center, it feels like everything that you do, whether that’s pricing, whether that’s interactions with the client, right, and just your own centering of self always comes back to just breathe, feel think, hold space for yourself, it’s all about self care first, so that you’re good that you’re protected, as Sue would say, you know, protect the castle, right? You want to protect that castle first. So that you can be there for anybody else that’s in your life, whether that’s a client or partner, or whatever it is. And I haven’t really seen meditation outside of everybody should meditate. I haven’t seen actual demonstrations of breathing techniques in any of these courses. No, Sue does it certainly in the self value stuff, but that’s focused on self value, right. So in in modern photography, education courses, I’m not seeing a lot of that. So I was super stoked when I’m watching this video, then suddenly, I’m sitting there with you and I’m, I’m breathing, and I’m letting things out. And ah,

Emily London 36:59
I did it with me, that’s awesome. I

Matt Stagliano 37:02
was so doing it with you. And it was, it was really interesting how that little bit of presence, keeping yourself present tuning everything else out how much falls away. And for someone with a neuro spicy brain like mine, that’s going like a crack addicted bowl that just snorted three lines of cocaine, like, my is going all the time, and to be able to stay present. And just center and hold space for myself is it was wonderful to be reminded of that. So thank you for bringing that back into kind of our, our orbit, right of, hey, you can work 24/7 But you’ve got to come back to center, you’ve got to come back to presence and you keep bringing that back. That’s a really long way I kind of went by my elbow to get to my ass on that point. But it was really just the breathwork piece I hadn’t seen before. And I really appreciated you including that because it is such an important thing for us to be able to regulate our own nervous system. And

Emily London 38:14
and honestly I I came from a childhood was incredibly dysregulated and I married a person who had similar dysregulation, different strategy or approach. So my my strategy was to fight and my former husband strategy was to Peacemaker avoid conflict at all costs. And so he trained me over time to restrain my fight impulse a little bit, kind of just with his safety, frankly, he created more safety for me, and it soothed my nervous system. And so the breath work that I include, it really came about after my divorce the loss of this partner ship it was a very big disruption in my my feeling of safety and learn how to anchor myself was a new experience that I Tantra was a big part of how I called upon you know these practices to resource myself and I really brought them to my photography career at the end of it I had created all of this stuff with you know the breathing techniques before the shortened one that I talked about that I had been using for the photography career because I actually needed that before shoots to like actually just not be in so much terror like my heart out out of control that I would feel like oh no, I can control my body and that would accelerate my fear. Right? So I actually had a lot of like problems with panic and dysregulation as a photographer the first time I got to Creative Live I was in the back like holding my breath and like going through all of these techniques just trying to survive it and not cry And, and then, you know, kind of after the divorce was my chance to realize I still have a real template in my system, this child from a very inflamed childhood that hadn’t been addressed. And I had been given Safety and peace, but not skills and tools for how to be this this way

Matt Stagliano 40:27
on my own. Right, that makes sense. Sure. Absolutely. Makes sense.

Emily London 40:31
Right. So. So the breath work, and everything was actually what I was able to infuse and gift myself. Ah, to actually because you you said a few points when you were talking about breathwork you said we can work 24/7 We have to come back to the self. And I actually would like, No, we shouldn’t be working 24/7 No,

Matt Stagliano 40:52
I know we shouldn’t be working 24/7 100% I know

Emily London 40:56
that. Yeah, no, but what what what I know you don’t mean it literally in the full literal but but there’s also this part of me that wanted to make this point of I was trying to be the best photographer and mentor, Sue Brice person, whatever perfectionistic that cage became such an additional stress load to my system that I, I I had to retire from photography after my divorce, like in this way that was I have so much of my creativity needs have to get diverted to this baby girl, this inflamed child in me who needs to learn how to navigate reality and find safety within myself. And I had to learn how to harmonize my masculinity and my femininity. In my marriage, I started overly feminine, from the position of I’ll do anything to keep you and being very teachable and submissive, then pendulum swung to the opposite side. Sue Brice discovers you know comes into my life, I’ve got an empowerment and a business. And so I swing over hypermasculine you wouldn’t know by looking at the beautiful feminine quality of the work. And getting divorced, I switched over again hyper feminine to my chaotic, inflamed child, and my very suppressed sexuality and needing to address those aspects of me and bring them into harmony with a new version of a masculine. That pendulum is always kind of finding its balance point, right. And so then discovering a version of the masculine within me in a beautiful way, influenced by my former husband, influenced by Sue Bryce. Right, I have these aspects of me that I can infuse. And also, I’ve learned some structures and practices that really hold me and give me the ability to hold myself in that masculine frame and, and the permission for my chaotic, inflamed wild, child, artist, lover, whatever, all of it and love it all. You’ll see me cry a lot. It’s interesting to me to

Matt Stagliano 43:48
know, I’ve never I’ve never seen you cry, not one. There’s never been a tear in any of the conversations you’ve had. No, I think you know, what’s really interesting is, so I knew you as basically an archetype as an online entity and Avatar, a person in the sea Bryce orbit that existed as a mentor you were in a world beyond my world, when I was starting as a portrait photographer, right? Because you had already and I’m throwing air quotes, so the listeners can know what I’m doing. You had already made it considerably, right? You were one of Sue’s mentors. You had products in our store, you had a great business going on. So I knew you as Emily, the photographer, right really didn’t know your personality at all. A couple years ago, we met at the portrait masters a bit more formally, we’d kind of you know, circled and said hi and just, you know, been part of the community and then we finally did sit down and have a common conversation and I the struck me immediately was just and it was At the end of this, this point where your your marriage had ended, you had gone to Costa Rica for a while you had really explored Tantra and your own inner workings and just really developed your core sense of self and the spectrum balance between masculine and feminine. And so when we did finally sit down and get to start talking, there was this calm presence and a self assuredness in those conversations, right? And it was, it was wonderful and beautiful. And it was way more than I thought you’re gonna if there’s going to be some vapid Yeah, which is exactly what I thought, right. And instead, it was what, three, four or five hours of conversation right nonstop about all of this stuff and being centered and the the need to get in touch with our inner child and nurture that and so to hear you still now refer to the, the time before, right and in relation to the time now, there is obviously this, this period in between, right between where you started to learn photography from SU gained that empowerment between your marriage ending starting to really work out on your own and establish a life a solitary life, for the moment to get in touch with every part of you. Was it in Costa Rica that you had a wow moment that opened you up? Right? Or was there a? Was there a a marked moment down there? Where were things clicked with how you needed to see yourself emotionally? And were you able to find that balance? Was it through dance therapy? Was it through Tantra? Was it through just getting out of the rat race for a while and separating yourself and putting yourself in entirely new location?

Emily London 47:14
Yes, all the above.

Matt Stagliano 47:17
will expand on Yes.

Emily London 47:21
Yeah, so it started first, of course, getting divorces is an experience that brings you to your your knees in terms of mourning, and oh, fuck,

Matt Stagliano 47:32
oh, I know. I’m with you. Like, every time I bring it up, it brings back a ton of different feelings. And it’s hard to talk about. Yeah, because the interesting thing is, we’re so and I’m just giving you a moment. We’re so wrapped up in the grief in the morning of what we had and what we lost, and the longing for what we could have been and should have maybe not even should have been like to the sheds could have been realization of potential lost. But what did you find when you move to the very, very humid jungle?

Emily London 48:16
Well, let me backtrack and say like, for me, it was 15 years and it originated 18. It wasn’t just a relationship that ended it was my family completely. So it was like this, this like, Okay, I chose to end something kind of beautiful. Because I felt that there was potential for something really, truly magnificent. And I had to forgive the part of myself that knew that and wanted that. And that initiated the divorce. The part of me that wanted to stay safe and taken care of really was pissed, pissed. And, and inflamed. I also had other aspects of me they were incredibly inflamed, right, this childhood theme carried into my marriage with my sexual relationship with my partner, and I’m bringing that up because that’s important. When you realize why I pursued Tantra. In my dynamic, my partner was a loving guy, he was not like abusive or trying to take advantage in ways he shouldn’t. He was always trying to honor my needs or whatever. But he was like it was something that we were never able to figure it out. We started off on the wrong foot. We didn’t have the communication skills to get onto the right foot. And then we just kind of built a lot of pain and resentment until we had to end up with nothing. So that huge disruption was like starting over as an orphan And that was when I went into my dark night of the soul and into my great realizations about my past and about my future. I saw for myself a tantric healing and intimacy coach from my bedroom, in my house in Utah, I season after my divorce, had just a mattress on the floor, and it became this cocoon space for a year. I didn’t go anywhere else I didn’t date I dated. But I wasn’t dating for partnership, I wasn’t trying to find a man to be my man. I was exploring my sexuality, really, and continuing to injure myself by not setting boundaries, the same exact way I did in my marriage. And the same reason I ended my marriage was this thing like you did this. You can’t respect my boundary. So we can’t say together. And then to discover I’m still doing that’s causing the situation meant I was the one well, it was both of us. Of course, every dynamic is both people. But it’s helpful for me to take the responsibility because then I can do something with it. So for me to say I was the one who didn’t know how to speak my needs, boundaries and desires. And I sat in that cocoon, I hired my tantric coach from that space, and nourished myself with what were my needs, boundaries and desires, actually. And I started really giving myself permission to feel my mind needs, boundaries and desires. And I started really desiring to go back to being warm. So just some backstory, I was, I was raised in the Philippines. And my parents got divorced when I was seven. And when we left the Philippines, when I was seven, we went to Utah in the middle of the winter in December. And I have struggled with winter ever since. And winter was coming up. And I suddenly looked at my beautiful house on this match it like this magnificent hillside with this beautiful view. And I just realized, like, I’m selling the house, present tense, got on the phone and texted my mom who’s a real estate agent and said, I need you to list the house, what do we do to get started. And it was that season of time when I was really giving myself self space just to be myself only myself for a bit, to not have to make, make myself available to meet the needs of other people for a minute my kids needs were taking care of, you know, it was finally giving myself permission to only care about that for a second, what are my needs, boundaries and desires. Because I was so distracted by the external people in my field, my children, my husband, my clients, that I wasn’t attuning to my own needs and boundaries and desires. And then like during that season after my divorce, I became an incredibly selfish friend for a little while only able to see myself and talk about my I had to go there. And I’m really grateful that I did I feel a little sorry, to my friendships that I took up all that space for a while. That way, especially because that’s a hard that’s a hard part of the processing to be part of sometimes, but when I started getting clear on what my desires were, they were pointing me back to the warmth of Costa Rica, Costa Rica was easier than the Philippines I’m not going back to the Philippines. I wasn’t the country itself that I was like in love with as a child, you know, as a child, all you remember is the backyard and the swimming pool, and the warmth. And whenever I went outside, people were excited to see a blonde kid. And so I got to kind of live this world where I got to be beautiful and special everywhere I went, I loved it. And I get to experience that in Costa Rica to some degree. And it was this child part of me so desiring to go back. I wasn’t done, you know. And I was honoring that. That sweet part of me that wasn’t done dancing in the backyard, the swimming pool, you know? And that first step of giving myself permission to sell the house and go to Costa Rica. And I was like I’m gonna I discovered this incredible dad’s video told you and shown you. And when I saw it on my way to Costa Rica, I was like After Costa Rica, the next thing I’m going to do is learn that style of dance. And then, when I was in Costa Rica, I was connected to a woman who teaches that style of dance at the same retreat center that I was at. It’s a very unique style of dance called Brazilian Zook very into the masculine or feminine energy dynamics.

And so

I was let you know, I kind of feel like that’s the nature of this guiding universe that wants us to be given all of the experiences we desire. It’s my perspective. And so I was led to my adventures, and to wow.

To add, a dance teacher was teaching, not just Zook, which, for the record, what I loved about Zook was seeing the woman in surrender. And thinking, wow, I want to access that. And the teacher that I had, was like, I only teach liquid lead and follow where we both we learn both how to lead and follow. And the game is we’re having a conversation. That’s a mutual dialogue. It’s not somebody telling somebody else how to. And so she, she actually kind of flipped this very traditional gender roles, dance, to a different game. And it’s really fun to play in the game, where the masculine and feminine energy dynamics shift. the surrender of being the listener is very delicious. I enjoy that and prefer it, frankly. But the the leadership and capacity to mentally formulate the structure of a movement of a dance is also a really cool thing to step into, and be able to have the capacity to do. And so when you’re to answer your question, this, this specific woman that the universal lying to me with, brought me to the exact correct lesson for me, which was that I didn’t actually have to learn to simply surrender. That That wasn’t something that would ever have to be an expectation from me again. And yet, I could absolutely still play and dance in, in surrender. I just get to have both and and to learn it through the form of class means she didn’t only teach it to me conceptually.

She taught it to my body.

So now my body knows. So my experiences in sex have absolutely shifted since that training because now I play with both

Matt Stagliano 58:03
how is

how is the young Emily faring? Little girl you nurture how she fairing

Emily London 58:14
to blow my nose and like a I’m falling apart like this petitions by us

I have a much better relationship with her now. Child, Emily, because I have commitments to take care of her better. Sure. So I paid attention to what my needs are like, you know, I need to feel safe. I need to feel joy and beauty and connection. And I prioritize them. And I’ve organized my need for softness and crying.

Matt Stagliano 59:08
Now when when you were in Costa Rica, and we had we kept in touch and we’re talking quite a bit while you were down there. And you were recording different courses at that time. And it wasn’t the DOM photographer was it? It was a different it was a different set of coursework. Do you feel like the dance training and this ability for you to reconcile the masculine and the feminine and understanding more about yourself through move, bent and through breathwork and through your ability to be alone and learn about yourself and soothe yourself? Do you feel like all of that helped drive you more pointedly toward In this course towards the DOM photographer, and understanding the importance of your own energy in your own control of your own energy, when in business as a photographer

Emily London 1:00:21
honestly, this course came about because it kept it kept getting requested, like I kept having people requests that I do a mentoring session with them, and they always want to talk about this specific thing. They’d see me Sue Bryce, the, the pre consultation videos, and they were like, Oh, your process was amazing. And I’m done with that process, right? I’m retired, I’m like, my brain is done. And I kept not wanting to teach these, you know, people were coming to me for this, this knowledge. And eventually, one woman convinced me to do it, to do a mentoring session with her. And then also like, you know, if I’m re energizing this, like, putting my mind back around at all, you know, for her, I’m gonna do it for a course so that I can have this kind of retirement gift, you know, out of photography, like, I’m never not be a photographer’s you’ll always be a photographer when you once you’ve started that, but it for me is kind of a way of tying a bow. Yeah. The season of time, that was my delicious and beautiful Sue Bryce photography, playground. Right. And I am so grateful to have been given the opportunity in photography, wow, to learn how to hold space with with people who are putting me in this position and saying, I trust you. And that fortified me in learning that I could trust me to, I felt like, women are so generous for each other. Like that. They’re they’re trying, they’re gonna do their best to do whatever you’re asking. And like, even if you’re giving them weird, you know, requests, they’ll they’ll try it, you know, I mostly felt that from people encouragement, and trying to be like, like, let’s make this art together. And, and it was, for me to be able to do photography was very healing to the unsocialized, part of me that needed to learn how to be around people with proximity, who was very healing to the part of me who wanted to step into my leadership. It was very healing to learn how to set boundaries with clients, how to set prices, how to set standards for what I would expect, how to solve problems and and see the areas that I just was in resistance, and what could How could I solve this problem and create the solution. And a lot of the structures that are in the binder, which is the course you haven’t seen, yet evolved, because of the support of the masculine that my ex husband provided in this way of, you know, not only him and of course, to Bryce subraces education was a lot of my foundation. And of course, you would need to, I think benefit, most of all, from my thing, if you will, also, we’re working with suprises content, I think that it’s very symbiotic.

But Ah, wow.

So you have been given that gift right to, to learn how to do this and my ex husband’s infusion of his support in Hey, babe, we can’t have emergencies all the time, like, what’s the solution? Right, and like, Okay, here’s the solution, we’re gonna have more preparation, and then we need like a buffer time. And then we have to add this in the schedule. And so that kind of structure that gets put into the flow of the binder is it’s everything that I that made me not want to do my job. got put into this structure and frame so that I could just be a very happy floaty artist, rather than thinking about all the business stuff and all the other emails and conversations that I had to have with people back and forth and waste of time. And I was able to hire somebody eventually. And she did all my sales calls. I trained her on how to do that. And all of the ways that I trained her in the dump in the binder, which is the accompaniment to the DOM photographers, the Dom’s binder. Right. So the binder is literally what we call it in my studio. That’s just why I gave it that name. But that’s what I used to train. It was the training manual for my team. So here are all my systems so that you can now take care of me and my studio so that I can just show up and play and be an artist. And so that’s like, eventually after eight years as a photographer, what I constructed, I discovered photography, tantra, started weaving that work in my cocoon phase, then like, like close shop, just moved away from all of this work that I had built this incredible system and devoted myself to this other arena. And I’m still very devoted to this other arena, the content that you talked about is still in creation, and I’m super excited about it. And also, it felt really good to have a way to honor that past life. Right to be able to say, like, I’m so grateful for the whole process of living it, of the processes that I got to create. And the aspects of me that got to come forth in that and the me I got to become because of it. And the amazing thing is, Matt, when I pulled out this curriculum, to teach into this course, I actually gave to myself then this incredible gift, which was, oh, this is the structure for my next business. It is the binder, it’s just now with new emails, and it’s my, it’s my other. So it’s actually a system that now is supporting me again, in the frame of Alright, now I’m a high end luxury coach, that’s helping people with intimacy and tantric healing. And so the process of connection and enticement, and, you know, invitation, and it’s a journey is not that different, honestly, from photography. And so to say, Now, I have this beautiful structure that’s holding me again, and to be able to also give it back and complete this cycle with Sue felt really lovely. So that’s, that’s how it ended up kind of intercepting my tantric, you know, journey and path. I

Matt Stagliano 1:06:57
think it’s, I think it’s beautiful.

I think all of those experiences you and what it is that you’re sharing into something really special, it’s not from where I sit, right? So this is why I’m never going to be your marketing or sales guy. From where I sit. This isn’t for everyone, right? This isn’t for everyone, where it’s just a Walmart version of start your photo business. What it is, is, if you’re ready, if you’ve done a little bit of the work ahead of time, if you’re ready to have an open mind, and approach your business a little bit differently, here’s a methodology for you to explore. And not only along the way, will you create wonderful space for your clients, but you’ll be a little bit more in touch with yourself. I think one of the things you said in there a moment ago, was and it ties into something you said in the video, and I was writing it down as you said it. Photography is a luxury item. And you’ve got to develop that luxury mindset. Right. And I believe you said that in the course. And this luxury mindset doesn’t mean high dollar, it doesn’t mean that you have to be something that you’re not or live up to someone else’s expectations of what luxury is. There’s a different mindset that goes along with providing a luxurious service, and the energy that accompanies that. And it feels like the DOM photographer really caters to developing that luxury mindset in all forms, is that and I’m not talking like again, I’m not talking luxury from a material standpoint, it’s more of the space that you hold the energy that you hold for other people and making them feel safe and contained and and able to be themselves when around you. Does that. Does that make sense? I mean, that’s what I consider to be for me, that’s how I interpret luxury is safety and affirmation. It’s not materialistic or this is the most expensive thing that I could have. Luxury to me is something much more emotionally based than physically based. So when you when you say that photography is a luxury item, and we’re trying to develop a luxury mindset, am I on point with that? Or Am I misinterpreting what it is that you’re teaching? Because I want to make sure that I’m getting what you’re saying Correct? Well,

Emily London 1:09:47
I mean, when I say luxuries not afford sorry, photography is not a luxury item. I say that in context referencing especially this, that photography is a log Every item, right, I say that what I’m referencing, especially is I used to feel guilty receiving money for taking pictures. And there was a part of me who felt like I have, and this person has less. And I’m taking their four from their very little or from the food from their table. I think

Matt Stagliano 1:10:24
that’s pretty common for people to think. Yeah, that’s common for a lot of us to think. Yeah. So

Emily London 1:10:30
so there was this guilty part of me that felt I was stealing from people. And it was important for me to have this reframe that I’m providing something that’s not a necessity, it is a luxury. And so it is not an obligation to provide it for the price of a necessity.

I’m not a gas company, I, I have very finite time. I’m a mom, and I want to spend time with my kids.

I’m a lover and I want to spend time with my sweetheart. And I am a multi passionate student who is always learning. And I have time with each individual client, and I want to be able to serve many. And in order for me to be able to do that I have to price myself in a way that honors all of the aspects of me that I’m magnifying in my life.

And I guess,

when I talk about, you know, being a luxury photographer, there’s also this quality of like, it’s my luxury. As the photographer, I get to be in the beautiful studio, I get to have a team supporting me, I get to be able to say I want to be surrounded by beauty, and, and delicious experiences. And I provide that with my clients, right? So the luxury was it was like, Yeah, an embodiment of for myself, like, I don’t have to do this work, if it makes me feel like a servant, or if it makes me feel abused. Like, there are aspects of me, you know, like, I talked about having an inflamed childhood. So like, there are aspects of me that the my resistances sort of came from, like, I’m gonna get taken advantage of, or, and, rightly so. Right, because I wasn’t very good at communicating boundaries when we first started. So at the beginning, what I had was anger, or protection, or just, you know, not getting in the fray. And, you know, with coming into myself in photography, it was like, Okay, I’m in the fray, but not like this. Not like that. Not like that. You can treat me like this, like you can be on time to your appointments. Like you can show me that respect. Like I can just say it to you in a way that doesn’t denote or indicate that I would assume you wouldn’t, at all, I don’t have to I don’t have to make it a weird thing. We don’t have to be in any kind of like negative energy when I read my contract to people and tell them about my policies about rescheduling and stuff can be totally nice vibe. And also the few people that like made didn’t show up no call notes showed like made me angry and made me not want to keep being a photographer. Sure. Absolutely. And so it was the that was the resistance. So I created a solution. So the solution was learning to have conversations, learning to state my boundaries clearly with with precision and with respect, learning new communication skills, and a mastery of something beyond what I had before. Nobody owed me respect. It was my job to cultivate the ability to earn it.

Matt Stagliano 1:13:49
Who is the DOM photographer for? Where are they at as a photographer, beginner, experienced journeyman, searching, lost spinning? Who is this for?

Emily London 1:14:08
I feel like it’s for? Well, I absolutely think it’s more for the photographer who’s in a state of humility. Then one who is very, very, like cultivated in their dignity, perhaps one

Matt Stagliano 1:14:27
that is more collapsed and kind of maybe hiding a little bit more posturing and defensive. Well,

Emily London 1:14:35
frankly, if you’re posturing and defensive, if you’re like on that extreme side of the of the end of it, you may benefit but frankly, I think that the intentionality of the course is really permissioning for the people who were who would be more able to resonate with how I was when I started out, right, so I was young, I was insecure and unconfident and unsocialized and I was given these resources. So the super ice coursework, which I recommend pursue those, sign up for that, right? Like that, to me is like, an entire system in a box beautifully delivered an exquisite masterpiece. And so I absolutely always directing people, if they have already had access to that education and been taking advantage of that. And in particularly, that order, I think would be really complimentary. If they haven’t discovered super ice yet, I think that my course might inspire their curiosity and have them pursue the super ice coursework, because I don’t think that my course has the same foundational structure that her content does, she’s like providing a business model. So what I’m providing for in the DOM photographer, is mindset training. That is a one and a half hour mindset training course it was the mindset shifts that I have talked to so many other photographers who hired me for mentoring, to help them get through, it was the common consistent things like that, what I just described to you guilt, at the idea, I might be stealing Mao’s little food from the mouths of the children of the people I was photographing, by charging money that like that, right? And, and like just orienting to a different perspective of reality, I came from a framework that was interesting, in the yin yang of when I lived with my father, I had some wealth and privilege. And when I lived with my mother, I had a very feral, somewhat neglected existence, and broke. And so I actually carry the imprint of, of a lot of poverty from my family line, both of my parents came from broke, broke. And so there’s some scarcity in my nervous system. You know? The, yeah, the mindset shifts that I provide in that course, came from my life, getting my mind around it, how can I? How can I ask somebody? $1,200? Minimum?

How,

like, how can I even stomach it?

From a guilt perspective? So I had to start there. So that’s a big part of the mindset stuff, then there’s also that how do I do it from the how do I tolerate the fear of the rejection and like, hold myself, okay? And not like, become a cold and hard and withdrawn from like, tense person in the corner after somebody says, well, that’s too expensive. And I mean, my story in my head about how, you know, it’s like, if I, if I let myself go there, I’m not a very attractive, I’m not in the energy of like, being enthusiastic and bringing you into the space. So So there are a few things right mindset, if some of those areas, the next course, the binder, that’s the meat mat, that’s the that’s the place, I would love for you to go next.

Matt Stagliano 1:18:21
You’re doing the hard sell, I’m on it, I’m on it. No,

Emily London 1:18:24
that’s the one that actually goes into step by step, each phase of the process starting with the value of your offer. So really getting gifted and skilled at developing how to speak about the value of what you do from a position of actually feeling it to, because I mean,

you have to be turned on by your offer.

If you’re not turned on by your offer, why would I be turned on by your offer? Totally

Matt Stagliano 1:18:53
100%. I could not agree with you more. Yep. Go ahead, man. I want to hear your question. No, no, I’m, I’m all in on that. I mean, I think one thing that I’ve noticed in my own work is that I’ve gotten, I’ve gotten bored, I’ve gotten bored with the stuff that I’m producing. I’ve gotten bored with the offerings that I have, I don’t feel necessarily connected to the business that I’ve created. I feel like I as an individual have shifted sideways from not disconnected completely. I’m just I look at it and I go, I’m offering things that I don’t feel lit up by. And so I’m in this process right now of basically, you know, shutting down the shop, changing the machinery, turning everything back on in a way that lights me up so that I can feel that energy of Creation and desire and passion again, because I think You know, I’ve noticed in in my own world, every seven years or so I go through a cycle of renewal. It could be, you know, a move a job change a genre shift. I am, well let me get divorced, let me move to a different state, like, whatever it is, there’s this, there’s this thing that happens for me about every five to eight years, sevens, the nice little average, five, eight years, I can trace it back for the last 30 or 35 years anyway, of major shifts happening almost on the schedule. And I am right now, at the six to seven year mark of doing portraits, and I’m like, I’m gonna blow it up, I’m gonna get rid of everything and start over. And it’s kind of where I’m at. And I feel good about it. Place and I’m working on my own stuff. And it’s not about me here. But I understand that feeling of change and trying to, to reconnect with the work that you want to make, make sure that it lights you up, make sure that that you have the passion in it, because when you do, your clients will also feel that your potential clients who aren’t even paying you yet will feel that passion come through, we’ll understand what it is that you bring to the table. So we kind of circle back to where we started at the beginning, which was, you know, making sure that that energy that you’re putting out is, is being, you know, attracting the right folks to you. And that the folks that see you that you’re meeting them with the energy that they need to be met with, I’m not using all my prepositions correctly, but generally, you understand the English that I’m speaking. So you know, I think, looking at the DOM photographer, having gone through that first video, understanding that this is unlike anything that I’ve ever seen in the education space before. I love, love, love, not only the marriage of the spiritual and emotional to what we do, as a service provider, I love the fact that you’re the one to bring it to the market. I love the fact that you are the one that is able to speak on this from a place not of academic study, but have learned and lived experience of uprooting your life over and over and over making really fucking hard decisions over and over and over in the pursuit of exactly what it is that you want and makes your heart full. And that to me has been something that I’ve watched over the years with you as you grow into who you are even more just become solidified over and over. This is someone that is centered. This is someone that knows what they want and has an unending drive to get to where they know they can be. Forget the obstacles forget about the twists and turns in the road. There is in as the crow flies direction that you’re going from A to B. And I just love that you’ve brought all of this, all of this to all of us. So I am so thankful and so grateful for everything that you’ve put into this for all the time, the energy, the the words, that you’ve put in 1000s 10s of 1000s of words that you’ve put into it. All the emotion all the heart seeing come to fruition really is for me, watching my friend build what they believe in is phenomenal. And I couldn’t be more proud to say that you’re a friend of mine watching this come out. So with all of that all the flowery smoke blowing straight up straight up the windpipe where can people will find you? And as we land this plane, what are some of the things that you’d like to say to anyone that’s out there listening?

Emily London 1:24:25
Where can people find me? Well, Emilylondon.com Is my tantric work. Emily London portraits is gonna get you to the dawn photographer actually all end up putting the dermatographia on the tantra website as well. The Tantra website though is also going to be coming up with some beauty beauty. We’ve got a course it’s going to be launching the beginning of December and excited to have another one going out in February into February. So ah there’s some beauty on the way As far as what I would want somebody listening out there to know.

Actually, I want to speak to you, because you’re my dear friend. And I want to thank you for

it for your vulnerable open, you know, safe space that you give. And for the space that you hold, I have always loved being in your orbit and appreciate so much your guardianship of assort feeling very helped by you. And, of course, we have our our beautiful conversations that we were especially exploring when I was in Costa Rica, I’ve been back in Utah and been nose to the grindstone and haven’t been able to come back to all of my connections. So it’s, it’s beautiful to be able to come back to some

Yeah, a chance to be in that container that you hold so beautifully, especially this context does provide that right. I, you and I have a little different report when we’re together that I love how professional you are. You made me feel very safe and feel very like taken care of, and looked after, like in the sense that I felt like, Oh, I like where you’re going with this conversation. So it was it was a pleasure, a pleasure. And also met, the next time we talk, I want to I want to do an interview on my podcasts of you where I get to ask the questions and lead the dance. How does that sound?

Matt Stagliano 1:26:48
I think I would, I would follow you in that dance anytime you wanted. Absolutely.

Emily London 1:26:54
Beautiful. Well, perhaps you can be one of my first podcast recording episodes. can teach me some of your tricks you’ve learned in this this game, but

Matt Stagliano 1:27:06
it’s in my upcoming course. Now I’m kidding.

Emily London 1:27:12
When Matt,

Matt Stagliano 1:27:15
the power of your voice podcasting one on one. Thank you for being here. I can’t thank you enough. I’m so excited that we finally pressed record on one of our conversations. And we have it for the record that we actually spoke about something intelligent. And I’m really looking forward to the next time that I see you, wherever that is on the globe, wherever that might be that our paths cross. I’m really looking forward to it because I know that it’ll just be kind of a magical wonderful moment, however long it lasts. So thank you, Emily for being here. And hang on for a couple of seconds. Make sure that everything uploads but I’m going to say goodbye. It was wonderful seeing you and so I’m sure I’ll catch up with you soon.

Emily London 1:28:01
Okay, darling. Bye bye.